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holly is annoyed at the way autism discourse happens online (if you're going to read this please keep in mind that i'm autistic) 

i'm so goddamn sick of the sentiment like "allistic people think that the way autistic people think and communicate is rude but ACTUALLY allistic people are universally rude by their nature of not being autistic"

please note that what i'm not saying is "people generally venting about their oppressors is bad", do not put that shit on me. what i'm saying is that picking out specific allistic behaviours and saying "these things aren't aligned with the values i have and share with the people like me, and therefore they're objectively bad" doesn't help anybody

the problem is not and has never been "there are two groups of people who are Different From Each Other", it's "allistic people assume everyone is like them and are unwilling or unable to compromise and adjust expectations". when autistic people are labeled as rude or weird it's emblematic of the issue but doing it back just fundamentally misrepresents what the issue is

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holly is annoyed at the way autism discourse happens online (if you're going to read this please keep in mind that i'm autistic) 

like people online will post "why do allistic people [X]" and get a thoughtful response describing the specific way it's intended to perform some role in society and why allistic people choose it over whatever the implied "here's what an autistic person would do" behaviour

and i feel like the correct response to that would be "oh, thank you, i understand a little better, it still doesn't exactly sit right with me but i can recognize that it's being done with intention by and for people who think differently than i do"

not "well that doesn't fit my values so actually it's Objectively Shitty" like fuck who died and made you king, other people do value those things and that's not a flaw with them that you're cool and brave enough to not have

holly is annoyed at the way autism discourse happens online (if you're going to read this please keep in mind that i'm autistic) 

the perfect world dream scenario isn't "everyone is like me" it's "people are willing to work together to figure out how to best interact with people who aren't like them"

i've had this thought for a while but i think i'm happy with this way to word it

I want to be clear that none of this is directly in response to anything that anyone here said

Actually I clicked a link someone posted to a twitter thread about autism, but then i kept clicking around (mistake) and that's when I saw the thing that inspired this

my own shitty prejudices on display 

@monorail I definitely agree with you (especially on the "people are willing to work together" thing) but I think the part that always stuck out to me was

From my point of view and life experiences, people don't want to help anyone

And I don't think that's exclusive to allistic people, but arguably more common (or it's just my prejudiced point of view); that I've largely given up on "a better world" because I'm completely unconvinced (Americans especially but) anyone wants to make the world better, wants future generations to even exist.

I know I don't fall into the camp of asking "why do they do this" and lashing out "that's dumb", but; it's also because I already know the answer, and that I do still think it's dumb. And the only feeling it leaves me is "I wish they would be better"; arguably I could be doing more to make the world a better place by convincing and talking to these people, but... my life is hard enough so it makes me feel like it's "not my job".

I don't know.

I want things to be better, I just don't have the energy to take that upon myself.

But I wish I did.

re: my own shitty prejudices on display 

@The_T i mean i agree to the extent that there are things normalized in society because allistic people do them that i think are weird and don't make sense to me but i don't think there's a real sense in which I'm Right And They're Wrong

i don't even really mean stuff that's hurting people i just mean like tiny normal stuff mostly

e.g. i saw someone say "it's so fucking weird and rude that allistics will ask 'is there a bathroom?' when they KNOW there's a bathroom. just ask if you can use the bathroom"

that's the kind of thing i mean, the way people treat each other being normalized one way or another

re: my own shitty prejudices on display 

@The_T it doesn't help to say "the way allistic people talk to each other seems rude to me" because like, they're not talking to you. they're talking to each other in a way that makes sense to them. when they are talking to you then it makes more sense to try to establish ways of interacting that work for everybody

my own shitty prejudices still on display 

@monorail yeah. And I personally don't care how they talk to each other (or talk to me), since I'd really rather they didn't talk to me at all.

I understand this is is completely off topic and not what you're talking about, but: I guess the big issue that puts stress onto me is that... I still have to talk to them, because of rules they set. Having to work a job (where I talk all day), having to rent an apartment, etc.

Like my anger and stress fully comes from "it doesn't have to be this way, why do you insist on having it be this way", and then they look at me like I'm the madperson for thinking things could be better.

But yeah. I know it's not what you're talking about. But it's just one more thing that makes me feel so defeated and why I "resent" their existence, I guess.

@monorail thank you, I think about this when "allistics shouldn't expect everyone to make eye contact and talk while shopping" comes up

I don't want to do those things but I *do* want to treat the store employees like people, so I'll do them

re: holly is annoyed at the way autism discourse happens online (if you're going to read this please keep in mind that i'm autistic) 

@monorail yes times a million plus in my experience the people who are like this also don't get along with very many other autistic people either bc we don't have exactly the same expression/needs as they do and they can't handle that either

re: holly is annoyed at the way autism discourse happens online (if you're going to read this please keep in mind that i'm autistic) 

@adriantepes someone i know got kicked out of an autism discord for struggling with tone indicators, like "you need to stop lying about what tools you find helpful for communication if you want to be welcome in SAFE SPACES FOR AUTISTIC PEOPLE" like holy shit have you tried reading back your own messages once

re: holly is annoyed at the way autism discourse happens online (if you're going to read this please keep in mind that i'm autistic) 

@monorail that's horrible nonsense :c I wish these people a single ounce of self awareness, the concept that someone would lie about communication tools is so absurd I legitimately don't understand it

re: holly is annoyed at the way autism discourse happens online (if you're going to read this please keep in mind that i'm autistic) 

@monorail oh i've had this exact conversation and while not officially on the spectrum (honestly i feel like odds are good that like... my entire family... i know it's not 100% genetic but my mom is all "oh yeah modern medicine would have spotted me as autism spectrum if i was growing up now an as for your dad, HE WOULD BE TURBO DIAGNOSED AS THAT", so like. i'm willing to accept that the liklihood is high. i've just not felt particularly compelled to go further than that because basically all the coping strategies and brainweirds i need to discuss i can access via established anxiety and assorted miscellaneous brainweirds yknow? like not that i'm anti-dx at all - god no - it's just that i'm tired and it's one of those "well if anyone's got a time machine this would have been choice to know in like... middle school, but oh well" things lol)... it stings especially hard when the question of Why Do People Do [ X ], Can Someone Help Me Understand is one you leap to answer because... it turns out X is... kind of your special interest? pet hobby? thing that is Your Shit? thing that is notably what excites you and is kind of your area of expertise and knowledge, and that's why when someone asks for an explanation you get really excited to leap in and try and help a pal see the exciting things you see in it?

y'know, that type deal

and then the response is "ugh i hate the stupid bullshit the allistics and neurotypicals come up with, i see no value in it and therefore it is valueless!!!"

and it just leaves me lying on the floor all

cool talk, never mind i'm not exactly neurotypical, but thanks very much for that kick in the teeth you just gave me

this goes double if it's a Known Area Of Expertise that somebody has come to you specifically to utilize, "hey i know you're really pro-Thing so can you explain Aspect Of Thing to me". like goddamn i'm trying to make a friendly interaction here, not have a little back and forth of the type usually suffered by service workers at the hands of someone on a privilege power trip. i don't even have a manager to call in to take over the register lmao

it is something that has Notably Happened To Me More Than Once and it just makes me very tired

for one thing, it's not like autistic-folks-to-autistic-folks benefit from this conversational tactic either. i mean a whole lot of ableism can be described as "the other people around the autism spectrum folk just setting up pitfalls and then laughing when said autistic person eats shit". i can absolutely see how people would fall into the trap of thinking this is how it's supposed to go. when the world is lucy holding the football, promising charlie brown that the football won't get yoinked away THIS time, it becomes the natural back and forth of how things are supposed to be. a conversation becomes not about exchanging information. it's about having a winner and a loser. somebody who laughs while holding the football, and another somebody who eats shit. communication as a zero-sum game.

and that's... just... not a cool way to treat other people! it's so unnecessarily hostile! you end up hurting people for very little reward. and god help you if you fall into this back-and-forth pattern thinking that it's the primary way things happen. every social interaction becomes highly stressful as you have to make sure you're not the loser above all else. and it's not about actually getting to know people, exchanging info, learning, growing, whatever - it is just about determining who wins and who loses. if someone is actually looking to do any of those things, it means they've fallen into a pretty wicked trap - the only thing this pattern gets them is self-sabotage. absolutely nobody has a useful time, or a productive one, or even just one that feels nice to have.

i can understand that sometimes it becomes this trauma ping-pong as people replicate old patterns.

but also, like... part of growing up and taking care of yourself and making sense of the world - even if you're neurotypical and completely ablebodied and whatever - is learning how to actually get what you want, and learning how to not just sabotage yourself out of any success. and sometimes that means modifying your behavior, and that's okay. from something as simple as "the last time i made this cake it was too dry, so i will not just make the same recipe again and then be sad that the cake is still dry; i will modify the recipe and add more milk" to "this job is amazing, but it is really strict on time. so i need to move up my bedtime and set my alarm clock earlier too, because i need to make sure i'll still be on time for my job" to things like "hey i feel bad and make others feel bad when i respond in pure anger so even if it feels good in the moment, i have to think about long-term goals and quarantine myself instead of hulking out". and... well... pobody's nerfect at this lol. everyone often takes many tries.

but on the other hand if there's a simple way to stop hurting yourself and your own aims, it's a pretty good idea to speak up and go "guys, we should stop this whole thing where we smack ourselves in the face. it's just making our noses really sore"

holly is annoyed at the way autism discourse happens online (if you're going to read this please keep in mind that i'm autistic) 

@monorail this hits on something I struggle with online, and that's like....I guess tone? If I complain about NT behavior I often would LOVE an explanation. But that explanation can easily be meant as like justification, I guess? Like, you see these conversations and it's unclear if things are combative. Or if one person is unfairly treating it that way?

holly is annoyed at the way autism discourse happens online (if you're going to read this please keep in mind that i'm autistic) 

@monorail (like, I haven't been diagnosed with asd or anything, I just don't really get what nt people are saying)

But um, yeah, this shit is why I add these clarifications, like "to be clear this post isn't upset", because it sorta feels like shit is often on edge and things fall apart fast? But like. This could totally be me not following tone. Idk

holly is annoyed at the way autism discourse happens online (if you're going to read this please keep in mind that i'm autistic) 

@monorail I might not have a point actually, sorry

re: holly is annoyed at the way autism discourse happens online (if you're going to read this please keep in mind that i'm autistic) 

@heatherhorns no i getcha and i also often feel like i have to say that i'm not upset or anything because that seems like the default emotion that gets brought to this kind of thing

holly is annoyed at the way autism discourse happens online (if you're going to read this please keep in mind that i'm autistic) 

@monorail "well that doesn't fit my values so actually it's Objectively Shitty" is pretty much the primary thing allistic people do that is shitty and whether that's inborn or learned in autistic people we need to cut it the fuck out

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